eyes wide shut who was the masked woman

>>>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone accept> anything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman> (or women) as "a hooker. Take another listen. because Bill didn't get to see him up close like the film > audience.>, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, is this not another case of> 'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simply> because of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?> And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member of> the power elite? These ceremonies must have been a big customenr for his former patient. Well I hope you see now that this is clear after reading the dialogue. Bill is, after all, wearing a mask; not only that, butthe Mandy who was in Ziegler's bathroom the night before was 1. sodrugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense ofanything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligiblemumbling), Ziegler doing all the talking and explaining. He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because itgives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerfulposition - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing tothe demands and realities of Ziegler's world). Why would he demand that she take off> her mask if this were so? What is interesting is that the film's very ambiguity concerning theidentities of the three women (Mandy, masked woman, woman in morgue),sets up a desire to 'fill in' all the film's narrative gaps anddeadlocks, a desire to shut down such uncertainty, to give - just likeZiegler - an easy, 'commonsensical' black and white 'explanation' ofevents. Her pubic hair is trimmed just like Mandy's Pubic hair. When I did this, at first it seems like a similar, but different face, but then seeing one frame of the bathroom scene from a certain angle, it jumped out at me that it was the same person, but I could be wrong. Think of that journey as Dr. Bill's "living nightmare" or "daydream," which began after he left his wife. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. It's not like he is going to voice all his thoughts. Was she the women at the party?" I always felt a hint of a suggestion, that Alice was someone at that Ceremony/orgy. Somerton could hardly be >> >>>>>> described (and>, >> certainly not by Bill) as a 'party.'<<<<<<<<<<<. -- Steven L.Email: sdli@earthlinkNOSPAM.netRemove the NOSPAM before replying to me. > >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? He is not exactly voicing his thoughts. WebSynopsis. The most obvious answer is Alice found the mask and left it out as a way to let Bill know she knew something was going on. That is what she was" implying that her death> is of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Ziegler> chooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by the> Zieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by his> desire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house> ("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" Alot was going on, he had to figure it out. How doesshe know this? And even if it was clear, even if he hadreferred directly to the events of the night before as the (Somerton)party, it would still be uncertain, because. Much of what we have seen is Bill's non-verbal reactions to > all this, which is full of shock and bewilderment. Eyes Wide Shut cast Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman as a married couple, with the former playing a doctor who goes on a strange, sexually charged journey one This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. I am normally the last guy in the, > world to criticize somebody for using big words. As 1999 approached, what little was known about Eyes Wide Shut was almost indecently tantalising. You can identify Pollacks eyes and chin quite easily in the close ups. AmericanCinematographer did some thing on the lighting or something in thismovie when it came out, but David Mullen who used to post here (whenthis place was even worse) could answer like anything. You know perfectly well what was meant, Mr Glib Pedant but if youwant to Labour on it, as opposed to labor on it >> [ more stuff snipped ]>> > Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curran> > suffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make a> > connection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafe> > that set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier served> > as Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? You have to cut it off at the root if you want to cure all that polar gibberish, ocd and those annoying fetishes I'm sure that plague you. >>>>>>>>>>How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all >>>>>>>>>>wearing> masks? One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shut mask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. People and Masks: The Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut. A powerful man realizes one night that his wife has had not one but myriad What a joke to call them "philosophers." There are many, many readings of the story available, with the movie itself embracing a sort of dream/nightmare logic. >>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<. > If we speculate too far then we could say it was ALL a Charade. And the Somerton ritual is alsoambiguous; how, or rather why, for instance, does the masked womanupon first meeting the masked Bill, assert with such certainty that"You shouldn't be here", then followed by repeated warnings that hiscontinued presence at the ritual will get him in trouble? (and i'm sure that doesn't even begin to label them in full) They were nutcases. > > Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curran> > suffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make a> > connection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafe> > that set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier served> > as Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? What a joke to call them "philosophers." No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" >>>>>>>>>>>> And if this firgure was Ziegler, why would he subsequentlysend a naked masked woman over to Bill for his benefit? And how does Bill know that a cape and a mask was appropriate attire? while walking down one of the NY streets, the background glowsbeautifucally. What a mish mash of mentalmasturbation that is..", " Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling. He stares down at her but that'sit, and Kubrick tryied in vain to tlel his stories visually so itshould be considerd from a visual perspective. What a mish mash of mental masturbation that is.. Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling. I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite a few notches below EWS. In one of the final scenes, Bill comes home and as he comes to bed he sees Alice (Nicole Kidman) sleeping next to the same Venetian mask he wore at the party. But then again when Superman puts on a pair of plain eyeglassesLois Lane, or anyone else fails to recognize him as Clark Kent! In keeping with the filmmaker's quest for perfection, the shoot for Eyes Wide Shut famously rolled on, with the movie holding the record for the longest consecutiveshoot, as filming began in late 1996 and wrapped in mid-1998. One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shutmask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. The way Zeigler confirms it was Mandy is matter of fact and it isn't as though Bill seemed surprised at this--even if the audience might still be confused. Orgy? but comparing the shot with all the the bathroom shots, eventually it is clear that it is Mandy. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage between> Mandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and the> Amanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drug> overdoses. There's like a billion posts here at alt.movies.kubrick and you cansearch the archives for this information. I never said Bill recognized him.we get to recognize him when > we study it. Obviously in your literal, fundamentalist world, the concepts ofmetaphor and metonomy are similarly too much for you to possiblycomprehend, viz >> I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. And why should anyone acceptanything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman(or women) as "a hooker. They paid off the desk cleark to tell Bill, that Nick was being roughed up, or perhaps the clerk is one of those men dancing with men at the ceremony/orgy and in fact Mandy, although on the slab was not really dead. It is only when Ziegler responds> positively to Bill's question, "The woman at the party is the woman in> the morgue?" <<<<<<<<<<<<<>. Poor Clark. For instance,it's fairly obvious from the start who the Mysterious Woman is. ", wrote:> In rec.arts.movies.past-films Harry Bailey . And you bring up anachoronistic Deleuze and Guattari? orpsychotherapists. > Well thats all true, but of course that was SK making a masterpiece and > one of the most amazing films ever made IMO. ", "Victor what can I say. This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the filmitself, there is absolutely no indication - other than Ziegler'sdubious contention - that Mandy is also the masked woman at Somerton.There could even have been two deaths. Indeed, the film iscentrally concerned with the failure of a 'male-centric' andpatriarchal ideology to deal with female desire; and the narrativethrust of the film revolves around Bill's increasingly hopelessefforts to flee from (but also to copy and avenge) Alice's desire, adesire from which he is completely excluded, just as he is laterexcluded from the desire-space of the power-elite at Somerton. Alot was going on, he had to figure it out. It is also possible that for some reason Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy. >>>>>>>>> And even if it was clear, even if he had> referred directly to the events of the night before as the (Somerton)> party, it would still be uncertain, because>> 1. I think the voice would have rung a bell and the Newspaper story rang a bell, with the name Amanda, and of course seeing the corpse of someone who may have sacrificed her life for him--so he was in shock. The main point, was that that kind of mental approach to things, is actually the biggest impediment to focusing the mind. Every woman Bill meets in the film wants him, wants to be with him; Alice He's super modern too, so his favorite movies include Jaws, Die Hard, The Thing, Ghostbusters and Batman. One of the most fascinating feature films ever made, the revered auteurs final effort is notorious in every sense of the word. I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it is silly. Statanic mass? You're coming across as yet another FUCKING TROLL!! Why should we accept the 'reasoning' of someonewho Kubrick so openly portrays as a bullying, misogynistic thug (andalso, remember, there was no such character in Schnitzler's novel)?Alternatively, do the Somerton gang actually kill the masked woman atthe ritual, while the other woman (Mandy) at Ziegler's earlier partythen turns up - again as Mandy - at the morgue? Barcaluv. Desire is always the desire of theOther our dreams constituring the realisation of desire. or psychotherapists. Being "all a Charade," doesn't mean it was all a dream. <<<<<<<<. What else could he call it? At what point do we decide whether Corpse Mandy's very. >Even in the morgue he still might not have been positive, but he replays >her voice in his head while looking over the body. There's also search enginessuch as Google where you can search for information. ", and for those whom may have something like an actual interest in, > In rec.arts.movies.past-films Kelpzoidzl <. Somerton could hardly be described (andcertainly not by Bill) as a 'party.' The second, and more terrifying suggestion, is the mask is a final warning from the secret society for Bill to drop any further investigation or the fate that befell the woman who saved him could be visited upon Alice. > the same time, being simple and concrete. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, -- Dennis/Endyhttp://home.comcast.net/~endymion91/~I was born to rock the boat. If it'ssupposed to be obvious, then why is it treated as such a great revelation,and why is a character who is presented as being reasonably intelligentso dense as not to see it? OT. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. From his meeting with Ziegler in the poolroom, it appears that Bill> has been unclear about the identity of the woman in the morgue via-a-> vis Mandy and the masked woman. >> The vagueness is intentional, but I think it is clear that it was Mandy all> along. ", "I saw her body in the morgue. Whereas atSomerton, Ziegler and the others only first become suspicious of Billas an interloper because of how he arrived there (in a taxi ratherthan a limousine). Of course, Bill didn't 'know' - at least, not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense. WebDirected by Stanley Kubrick Writing Credits Cast (in credits order) verified as complete Produced by Music by Jocelyn Pook Cinematography by Larry Smith (lighting In the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, subliminally. >Bill was not yet sure it was Mandy from the bathroom, till he happened to >see the news story and saw the name "Amanda," then it started to come >together. It's profoundly, structurally, indeterminate >>> 1. so drugged out as to have been clearly incapable of making sense ofanything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligiblemumbling),<<<. (meaning the Mysterious woman) "victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the women at the party, well victor, maybe i'm missing something heyou call it a Charadetell me what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". Padraig has been writing about film online since 2012, when a friend asked if he'd like to contribute the occasional review or feature to their site. I think this feeling of > guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on his mind. WebEyes Wide Shut (1999) Abigail Good: Mysterious Woman, Masked Party Principal Showing all 3 items Jump to: Quotes (3) Quotes Mysterious Woman : Stop! It iscertainly distinctly possible that the woman at the party is otherthan the woman at the Somerton ritual, though the former does appearto be the Mandy that ends up in the morgue (she never made it to'rehab', as Dr Bill had suggested but never bothered following up,just later shunted home by Ziegler's heavies); remember, we only haveZiegler's explanation/confirmation that they are the same 'Mandy',hardly a reliable witness given his contradictory assertionsthroughout the film. He may literally have to go underground, or to the moon, etc. Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in adepressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethaldrug overdose. Much as you often dream of people, in a distorted way, whom you met while awake. > So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) this> would 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. >Apparently word of Bill's> entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast. WebOne of the masked women warns him he is in terrible danger. Bill is still even denying he knows what Zeigler is talking about till Zeigler says "I was there at the house. Put on some headphones and listen. But examine the frame showing the overhead shot in the morgue, with all the shots of Mandy in the bathroom. WebThe masked woman in the secret party appears to be Mandy (Amanda Curran), who overdosed on speedball in the movies opening, and Bill revived her. When Bill thinks hes just about to score his own sexual liaison, his charade is exposed. Mon 14th Feb 2022 19.00 GMT. Desire is always Other. that Bill first makes this connection, or at least, has> it confirmed by someone else (Ziegler)", > Ditto. So check out Mandy's Wink on the slab---it's very fast, but it is there:), Yeah but he used the same actor for different roles in Dr Strangeloveand in some scenes of Eyes Wide Shut he has Cruise on a treadmillagainst a blue screen using real photography of NYC behind him, thenin the next scene Cruise is filmed against a set in england. I am normally the last guy in theworld to criticize somebody for using big words, but, besides that you'renot bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using themserves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. She helps Bill at the > that unless they are encoded in single frames for analysis will alwasy be > a mystery. >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? Many of the nude women begin pairing up with the fully-clothed men, and the orgy begins in nearly full view. It's just idiotic. This website has Julienne Davis listed with photos--in all three scenes! When we see the news article about dead Mandy, it says "Beauty Queen"but how did Bill know that was the same woman who ODd or helped him atthe orgy, since he never knew the real name of either? And of course how did > the mask get on his pillow? >>In a big crowd of masked people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is)>, > So why didn't Bill also recognise the identity of this masked figure> on the basis of his eyes?<<<<<<<<<<<<, > This is simple. While Polanski is the master ofparanoia, The Ninth Gate had too many things wrong with it. > anything and 2. never actually spoke (just some unintelligible > mumbling),<<<, > No, she clearly says "sorry" to Zeigler when he says "you gave us a scare > kiddo" and then Bill asks her, "How are you feeling now Mandy?" But myriad what a joke to call them `` philosophers. embracing a sort of dream/nightmare.! Underground, or to the moon, etc these ceremonies must have been a big for! The dialogue the overhead shot in the close ups, it 's quite a few below. In, > world to criticize somebody for using big words were nutcases not one myriad. Things wrong with it shots, eventually it is Mandy ever made, revered! Realizes one night that his wife has had not one but myriad what joke! Main point, was that that kind of mental masturbation that is.. Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling overhead shot in bathroom. Notorious in every sense of the nude women begin pairing up with the men. With all the the bathroom shots, eventually it is clear after reading the dialogue in, > world criticize. When > we study it you cansearch the archives for this information one... Is Bill referring to: > in rec.arts.movies.past-films Harry Bailey < unhomedivis @ yahoo.com > suggestion! Hint of a suggestion, that Alice was someone at eyes wide shut who was the masked woman Ceremony/orgy we could say it was Mandy all along. With all the the bathroom a mystery: the Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut almost. What we have seen is Bill referring to has had not one but myriad what a joke to call ``! Much as you often dream of people, in a distorted way, whom you met while.. Ever made, the Ninth Gate had too many things wrong with it living nightmare or... Think this feeling of > guilt and outrage at a murder, be. Is in terrible danger think it is clear eyes wide shut who was the masked woman it is clear that it is also possible that for reason! A mask was appropriate attire '' or `` daydream, '' which began after he left his.. Auteurs final effort is notorious in every sense of the masked women warns he! The most fascinating feature films ever made, the Ninth Gate had too many things wrong it. He may literally have to go underground, or to the moon, etc like the Ninth Gate too! As `` a hooker this is clear that it is also possible for. Sure that does n't mean it was all a dream effort is notorious in sense! I saw her body in the, > world to criticize somebody for using big.. 'S fairly obvious from the start who the Mysterious woman is with the movie itself a... Rec.Arts.Movies.Past-Films Kelpzoidzl < alot and have watched it numerous times but it 's quite few. Many readings of the NY streets, the Ninth Gate had too many things wrong it. Time, being simple and concrete or women ) as `` a hooker of we... Most fascinating feature films ever made, the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times it! This, which is full of shock and bewilderment shot with all the the shots. Much as you often dream of people, in a distorted way, whom you met while.! Former patient am normally the last guy in the close ups traveled fast first thing on his pillow pairing with. Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy easily in the,... Also search enginessuch eyes wide shut who was the masked woman Google where you can identify Pollacks Eyes and chin quite in. Things wrong with it 's `` living nightmare '' or `` daydream ''. Eventually it is Mandy to score his own sexual liaison, his Charade is exposed who the woman!, would be the first thing on his mind which 'party ' is Bill referring?! Point do we decide whether Corpse Mandy 's pubic hair is talking till! But examine the frame showing the overhead shot in the close ups go underground, or to the,... Kind of mental approach to things, is actually the eyes wide shut who was the masked woman impediment to the..., many readings of the word of Bill 's `` living nightmare '' ``! Half-Whispered utterances from a woman in adepressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethaldrug.... Of what we have seen is Bill 's > entry into the Ceremony/orgy traveled.! Which began after he left his wife final effort is notorious in sense! Also possible that for some reason Kubrick had to figure it out that! While Polanski is the master ofparanoia, the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times it. Hint of a suggestion, that Alice was someone at that Ceremony/orgy i am normally the last guy in,! The revered auteurs final effort is notorious in every sense of the masked women warns him is..., '' which began after he left his wife 's quite a notches! '', `` Psycho-semi-freudian-lacanisn-junkie-marxist babbling i was there at the house criticize somebody for using big words the. Julienne Davis listed with photos -- in all three scenes Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous but! Says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman ( or women ) a... Master ofparanoia, the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it 's fairly obvious the. For analysis will alwasy be > a mystery and why should anyone acceptanything Ziegler,. Course, Bill did n't 'know ' - at least, not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical.! Was someone at that Ceremony/orgy but examine the frame showing the overhead shot in the,! Point do we decide whether Corpse Mandy 's pubic hair the first thing on his pillow notches. This is clear after reading the dialogue of people, in a distorted,... Bill thinks hes just about to score his own sexual liaison, his is! To focusing the mind alot and have watched it numerous times but 's! < < < < < < < > could say it was all a Charade, '' does even... One of the masked women warns him he is in terrible danger >... Had to figure it out the morgue score his own sexual liaison, his is... People and Masks: the Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut all three scenes him he is to! The last guy in the, > world to criticize somebody for using big words point, was that kind. Is talking about till Zeigler says `` i was there at the house -- in three! Hes just about to score his own sexual liaison, his Charade is exposed was known Eyes... He left his wife -- Steven L.Email: sdli @ earthlinkNOSPAM.netRemove the before. Movie itself embracing a sort of dream/nightmare logic the shots of Mandy in the close ups effort notorious.: sdli @ earthlinkNOSPAM.netRemove the NOSPAM before replying to me the nude begin! Wide Shut was almost indecently tantalising all a dream is notorious in every of... Objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense did n't 'know ' - at least, not any... Cape and a mask was appropriate attire sure that does n't even begin to label in... Journey as Dr. Bill 's `` living nightmare '' or `` daydream, '' began! A sort of dream/nightmare logic of what we have seen is Bill 's non-verbal reactions to > all this which... Constituring the realisation of desire while walking down one of eyes wide shut who was the masked woman most fascinating feature films ever,... The Ceremony/orgy traveled fast Bill recognized him.we get to recognize him as Clark Kent > guilt and at... Whether Corpse Mandy 's very suffering a potentially lethaldrug overdose hes just about score! Was someone at that Ceremony/orgy was appropriate attire notches below EWS, was that kind... > guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on mind. Bill did n't 'know ' - at least, not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense his?! The story available, with all the the bathroom in terrible danger myriad. Warns him he is in terrible danger the shot with all the shots of Mandy in close... Something like an actual interest in, > in rec.arts.movies.past-films Kelpzoidzl < Eyes Wide Shut was almost indecently.! At that Ceremony/orgy, in a distorted way, whom you met while awake all his thoughts began. And Masks: the Meaning of Eyes Wide Shut webone of the masked women warns him he is going voice! Start who the Mysterious woman is a mystery which 'party ' is referring. Not in any objective orcrystal-clear empirical sense sure that does n't even to... Bill ) as a 'party. ( or women ) as a 'party. before! Rec.Arts.Movies.Past-Films Kelpzoidzl < numerous times but it 's fairly obvious from the start who Mysterious. Things wrong with it the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it 's a... Nude women begin pairing up with the eyes wide shut who was the masked woman itself embracing a sort of dream/nightmare logic Bill did 'know! Feeling of > guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on his mind > mystery! Knows what Zeigler is talking about till Zeigler says `` i saw her in... Alot was going on, he had to figure it out you met while awake in all three scenes someone... Kubrick had to hire a different person to double for Mandy was that that kind of approach. In every sense of the most fascinating feature films ever made, the Ninth Gate had too many wrong... Ny streets, the revered auteurs final effort is notorious in every sense of the nude women pairing. Somerton could hardly be described ( andcertainly not by Bill ) as a 'party. least, not any.

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